JOSÉ JAVIER GRACENEA

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

 [00:00:00] Rob: Let me just start with a really easy question. Can you just introduce yourself, your name, and what you do.

[00:00:10] Jose: Okay. All right. I'm a chemist. I am PhD in organic chemistry. I started with coatings more or less 20 years ago. This is more focused on organic coating. Let me say, paint, in order to speak easily. Lead to that, I established a company, more a laboratory, a coating laboratory related to the coating analysis, do the coating test and so on. Due to that, there is a program in Spain, a TV program called Cuarto Milenio. Do you know that? Yes, I suppose.

[00:01:00] Rob: Yes, that's how we found you. Yes, definitely.

[00:01:03] Jose: Okay. They called me in order to analyze the faces of Bélmez. This is my background. I was a university professor for years, a general manager of several coating companies, a technical manager and commercial manager. All of which in organic coating. I think it was in 2014, yes, 2014, Cuarto Milenio called me in order to analyze the faces of Bélmez. I was in Bélmez.

I took several pieces of the groundwork, let me say, contaminated with faces and analyzed them. Getting result [unintelligible 00:02:01] and the result of the analysis was that those faces were not, let me say, were not manipulated, if you will. This is due to the concrete. When you look up a concrete face, now, for more than a-- I was in Africa after Cuarto Milenio for two years, and for more than a two years, I was working directly on concrete.

Let me say, these are the typical stains of concrete after some time. When I was in Bélmez, I asked to them if there was a magnetic field. I don't know, several-- There was something doing this point, I mean, they're doing the faces. The answer was, no. Nothing was there. The faces of Bélmez were natural ones and that was all. Nothing more than that. Apart from that, you have, I don't know how to say, you have the media influence in this point, but technically speaking, there is nothing to say. We cannot explain why the faces are there. We cannot explain that.

[00:03:52] Rob: That's very interesting. That was a wonderful overview of everything. I want to back it up a little bit, if you don't mind. Prior to the faces of Bélmez, you said that you do a lot of analyzing of coatings, of paints. In what other scenarios than the faces of Bélmez would you be called in to help analyze coatings, paintings?

[00:04:28] Jose: Apart from Bélmez faces? I didn't--

[00:04:33] Rob: Yes.

[00:04:33] Jose: I haven't understood your question. Excuse me. Come back to that, please.

[00:04:38] Interviewer: Yes. The basic question is, normally, what are the normal things your laboratory is examining?

[00:04:48] Jose: All kind of paint, from industrial to mineral, organic, all kind of paint. We do analyzing of all kind of paint.

[00:05:01] Interviewer: Yes. Are there certain scenarios that you do that for? Do you do it for the police? Do you do it for other companies when--

[00:05:11] Jose: Yes. We would analyze, for instance, our main task was to analyze the paint, where the problems were coming. You have an accelerated corrosion [unintelligible 00:05:27] task, there we work in order to say why this problem was coming up.

[00:05:38] Interviewer: Got it.

[00:05:39] Jose: I am very used to analyze paint for problem, okay?

[00:05:46] Interviewer: Yes, definitely. When the TV show reached out to you, was that the first time you had ever heard of the faces of Bélmez, or had you known about them before?

[00:06:01] Jose: No, nothing at all. I remember very well this day. A colleague of mine was telling me, "Jose, Jose. They have been talking about the faces of Bélmez." "Yes, what is that?" [chuckles] I didn't know that before. It was the first time for me.

[00:06:23] Rob: They call you up, they tell you about the faces of Bélmez. What is your initial reaction? What do you think it is before you do your analysis?

[00:06:39] Jose: My first reaction was not to think about it. I mean, those faces or this face are not of my interest. They are not of my interest. There are a lot of things like that in Spain. This is related to culture and other things, but I'm not interested at all on them, at all. I'm not interested at all in them. [chuckles] No, this is not my field.

[00:07:13] Interviewer: Then, why did the faces of Bélmez attract you to be a part of this examination?

[00:07:26] Jose: Yes, but maybe because it was interesting for me from the company point of view. It was interesting for paid person on TV and for the company, not for me. It was a very good publicity for the company. No more than that.

[00:07:46] Interviewer: Yes, definitely. Why do you think so many people are interested in the faces of Bélmez?

[00:07:57] Jose: I don't agree with you. There are not too many people interested in that. They decide this program, this TV show, it's broadcasting this type for travel [unintelligible 00:08:15] or whatever you want, but then, I don't think too many people are interested in that. I don't think so.

[00:08:25] Interviewer: Very interesting. It's very interesting. What was your first reaction when you saw one of the faces in person?

[00:08:42] Jose: My first reaction?

[00:08:45] Interviewer: Yes, what was your first impression of the faces in person?

[00:08:50] Jose: I don't know. I cannot tell you because I really look at that just from the technical point of view. [chuckles] There is no any emotional part of that, believe me. Even after, now it's after four years, believe me, I'm not thinking about that. Apart for the professional side, there is no any impression from my position. Just, excuse me, I'm very clear to you, that this is my first impression was, however, they are one more job, one more work to do, no more than that, believe me.

[00:09:41] Interviewer: Definitely. You didn't even think that they were interesting at all beyond just finding out what the chemical compounds in it was? Is that correct?

[00:10:02] Jose: Yes, also my interest was about the chemical compounds, where they are. Once we did the analysis of that, we just have found the normal compounds in concrete. No more than that. There was not any special, I mean, there was not any paint on-- Any content could be manipulated by people. There was nothing. What we found were the common compounds. They can be common chemicals in concrete, no more than that.

[00:10:50] Interviewer: Yes, Jose, there is a book out there that says the whole thing is a fraud. What is your opinion on that? They even say that, potentially, some scientific looks at it, people are running tests to get the result that they want instead of a real result. What is your answer to that?

[00:11:22] Jose: Excuse me, I cannot understood anything at all. [chuckles] Excuse me.

[00:11:28] Interviewer: No worries, Jose.

[00:11:30] Jose: Please come back to that, but in another way please come back to that.

[00:11:37] Interviewer: Sure. Some people say that you picked the tests to get a desired result. What do you say to that?

[00:11:53] Jose: Excuse me, I'm really sorry about that. I cannot understand. I will come back.

[00:11:56] Interviewer: No worries.

[00:11:58] Jose: I took several pieces of faces, and several people are telling that-- [sound cut]

[00:12:09] Interviewer: Yes, so you took several pieces of the faces, and then what techniques did you use to get those samples of the faces?

[00:12:19] Jose: We used a IR, infrared spectroscopy and a electronic scanning microscopy. These are the two techniques we used in order to do the analysis we need. Infrared and a scanning electronic microscope, same.

[00:12:48] Interviewer: Did you take that from only one of the faces, or did you take samples from multiple faces?

[00:12:57] Jose: No, I took several samples from Bélmez faces. Yes, I took several samples and there was a person taking them to the laboratory. Yes.

[00:13:14] Interviewer: Interesting, and so, what test did you actually run or processes did you actually run to examine the components in the concrete?

[00:13:33] Jose: What I run were several analysis, both infrared. Do you understand infrared technology?

[00:13:42] Interviewer: Yes, if you could explain to us infrared technology for people who maybe are not--

[00:13:49] Jose: Yes, I will. Infrared technology is just for knowing if there are organic compound, I mean, organic coatings. This was the target of that. You use infrared, you can analyze whatever you want with infrared technology. This is mainly put for organic compounds, so when I took several pieces of Bélmez faces, the first analysis was infrared technology in order to know if there was any organic coating put by people. I mean manipulated by people. This was the test analysis.

Afterwards, and once we realized that there was no organic compounds, we go into mineral compounds. For that, we used a scanning electronic microscope. Scanning electronic microscopy is more for atoms, not for molecules. With scanning electronic microscopy, what you see are atoms. You can see silicon, lead, I don't know, sodium, whatever you want. Infrared technology is for organic molecules, polymers, resin, and scanning electronic microscopy for atoms.

[00:15:33] Interviewer: Some people have said that an acid could have been used to make the Bélmez faces, did you find any evidence of acid?

[00:15:51] Jose: Again, come back please, again.

[00:15:55] Interviewer: Sure. Some people said that the family used chemicals to burn in the images, did you find any chemicals in the faces at all?

[00:16:14] Jose: No, at all. No. As I told you at the beginning, what we found were the common chemicals in concrete, no more than that. You cannot explain what are the chemicals are, I don't know how to say that, are designing faces. You don't find anything special there. There is just some concrete and some stain related to time, no more than that. You cannot explain that by analyzing chemicals in concrete. In this case, you cannot explain that.

[00:17:02] Interviewer: Very interesting, so to go back to the question I had earlier, some people have said that, not you specifically, but certain scientific analysis of the faces have run tests to be able to prove that there are-- Sorry, let me rephrase this.

[00:17:48] Jose: Yes, please.

[00:17:48] Interviewer: I'm trying to find the right way to phrase it for you.

[00:17:53] Jose: Yes, please, [laughs] because this is clear that we don't speak the same English. I know that my English is not good, [laughs] but it's very different to yours.

[00:18:04] Interviewer: Definitely, luckily my great grandfather was Spanish, and I actually grew up knowing him. I'm part Spanish, and so, I'm very used to the accent actually.

[00:18:20] Jose: Okay, yes. All right, come back.

[00:18:21] Interviewer: As for this question, some people have said, you picked the test to run because you knew that they would show nothing in it, instead of picking the correct test that would maybe show the compounds that were used to actually make the faces. Did you understand that? Does that make sense?

[00:18:56] Jose: First, as far as I understand, you are telling me that I didn't use the correct technique, and my point was not to show the real compound. This it what--?

[00:19:15] Interviewer: I'm not saying that, but yes, that is the question that I'm asking you. Correct.

[00:19:22] Jose: Yes, I don't know how to explain that to you. This TV show is very controversial in Spain. A lot of people are looking at that, and they are very interesting in that. For me, believe me, I don't have any-- I don't know how to say that, I don't need to do that. I don't need to show anything special, so believe me, my only task was from the technical point of view. Believe me, I don't mind what is there.

For me, this is nothing. I did that from my best knowledge, no more than that. We didn't have any previous information, any previous condition. The program was because this was a point we talked about, and I told them then that it was not interesting for me at all. From other point than the technical one, believe me, it is nothing that is really interesting to me. It was very professional and scientific point of view, only scientific point of view. I don't mind about other side of this probability.

[00:21:00] Interviewer: Yes, definitely. That's great to hear. With there being nothing in the concrete other than concrete, what do you think causes the faces?

[00:21:19] Jose: Nothing. Nothing apart from the compounds being in the concrete cause faces. Nothing apart from that. There are nothing. This is because of the stain of concrete. No more than that. There is not any compound apart from those that are very common in concrete. There is nothing related to organic coatings. There is nothing related to paint that caused those faces. Nothing apart from that. Nothing.

[00:22:03] Interviewer: Do you think that it could just be time weathering it, or do you actually think that there could be something supernatural going on? What is your--?

[00:22:16] Jose: No. What I know, not I think, what I know, is that nothing manipulated is there, first of all. What I know is that nothing apart from concrete is there. Why do we say that? Believe me, I don't know. I don't know because I was in place, and I saw faces, but then, there is nothing related to chemistry that causes that. Nothing. This is after the first thing I asked at the time, was if there was a magnetic field or something physical, more than technical, explaining that. From the chemistry point of view, nothing causes the faces.

[00:23:13] Interviewer: Very interesting.

[00:23:13] Jose: You cannot explain that. I don't know. I don't think there is a sure-- I don't know how to say, but nothing special. I mean, any coating is causing that. Nothing. Nothing related to that. I don't know why, but these faces are there, because I saw them, but you cannot explain that-

[00:23:43] Interviewer: Very interesting.

[00:23:45] Jose: -from the scientific point of view. Once again, from the scientific point of view.

[00:23:53] Interviewer: Definitely. Very interesting, Jose. This has been great. I actually think we've covered most of my questions already. Is there anything else you'd like to add about the faces or the work that you put into the faces?

[00:24:17] Jose: No. As I told you before, I don't have any interest in that. This was one more analysis we made from the technical point of view, nothing to tell you more than we told at that time. I think they have been in the web, you can find the analysis report, I think it is there as far as I know, because they broadcasted everything and I think they put that in the web as well. No, I don't have any impression apart from the technical point of view, believe me. [chuckles]

[00:25:03] Interviewer: No, that's great.

[00:25:03] Jose: No. Nothing more to tell you. Nothing more. Believe me.

[00:25:08] Interviewer: That's wonderful. Well, thank you so much, Jose.

[00:25:11] Jose: Thank you to you.

[00:25:12] Interviewer: This has been great. This is going to be wonderful to have in the episode. I really appreciate you taking in the time to speak with me.

[00:25:22] Jose: No, nothing. It was a pleasure. Believe me.

[00:25:26] Interviewer: It was a pleasure here as well. I hope you have a good day, Jose, and have a good evening.

[00:25:32] Jose: You too.

[00:25:33] Interviewer: Okay. Bye.

[00:25:34] Jose: Bye. Thank you.

[00:25:52] [END OF AUDIO]