Javier cavanilles

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

 [00:00:00] Interviewer (R.J) : Let's get started. Very easy question. What is your name and your background?

[00:00:05] Javier Cavanilles: My name is Javier Cavanilles. I'm a journalist from Spain. I always been interested in Fortean phenomenon. I don't know why the Faces of Bélmez crosses my path, so I started investigating what's one of the most important paranormal issues in Spain.

[00:00:27] Interviewer: What are the Bélmez Faces or the Faces of Bélmez?

[00:00:32] Javier: Bélmez is a very small village in the south of Spain. It used to be a very isolated area. Now, things have changed, but it was in the middle, let's say, of nowhere. The Faces are the strange figures of faces because most of them look like faces that appeared in the walls of a very small house where María Cámara's family lives. It started in the '70s and it has lasted until now.

[00:01:13] Interviewer: Who was María Cámara? I'm sure I'm mispronouncing that, and I apologize.

[00:01:20] Javier: María Cámara is a woman-- It's very important to understand who he was. When some people told the story, they forget about her background, and then try to show her as a some kind of Madam Curie mystery, and she was not. She had a very sad story. His father and his mother, I think, they died when she was very young. She married when she was still young. I think she was not 20 years when get married with Juan Pereira.

Juan Pereira was a very old man who was widow and have three children. In the south of Spain in this area, for a young woman to married an older man with kids meant, for the people, that she was trying to find a way of surviving in life, and so, she got a lot of problem. We are talking a very old society in Spain. It was with a dictatorship, a very Catholic country.

People didn't like her because they think she was in some ways guilty. The Faces of Bélmez, for her, was some kind of revenge. It's very interesting because if you miss María Cámara, sometimes you miss the most important part of the story.

[00:02:51] Interviewer: You mentioned what was going on in Spain at the time. What was the town of Bélmez like when these Faces first started?

[00:03:03] Javier: The village was very small, and I remember about it, we are talking about few thousand of people. It was really funny because it was in a road that only crosses Bélmez. It's not a city or a plain where you can go and to cross. You have to go to Bélmez if you wanted to go to Bélmez. It was very isolated from the rest of Spain, but it was not so different for so many people, village in this area of Spain. They're a poor area, mostly with people very ill-communicated, with high levels of poverty.

[00:03:50] Interviewer: That sounds like this leads to a perfect recipe for what happened. How was the first face found, and when was it first found?

[00:04:03] Javier: I will talk first about the first face that María found, and then about the real first face. María was at home, cooking one day. The village was in, let's say, a holiday. They have a very big fiesta for all the village, and she was cooking at home. She realized that where she was cooking what is called La Pava, it will be the first name of the face. Where she was cooking, there was something that looked like a face, but not any face.

It was very close to the face of then Christ, the Jesus Christ, that was in a holding in the Cathedral of Jaén. She thought that what she has found was a signal, let's say, from God more or less, in the same way of the Virgin in Mexico, the Virgin of Guadalupe. It was more or less the same thing. At the beginning, it was a religious thing that happened. What was the real first face?

Months before it happened, another woman- and her name is lost- another woman found, let's say, a stone with something that was like a Virgin. This woman with her friends kept the stone and put it somewhere in the- it's in the middle of nowhere. From time to time, they went there to pray to the Virgin. María didn't belong to this group. She was, in some ways, an outsider of the town or the village, as I say.

In some way, María tried to repeat the phenomenon that has happened already in Bélmez. The Faces of Bélmez, even the people who have studied and want to forget, they're going to start with María, and they're going to study at María's house.

[00:06:16] Interviewer: Do you think that because of that original face that the people of Bélmez were more inclined to start believing what was happening at María's home?

[00:06:30] Javier: People, in fact, in the context of the village was very Catholic. I understand when she thought she was find something that was almost like the face of Christ. Everybody believed she was not lying. They believed in her words.

[00:06:50] Interviewer: How did the people of the town find out about it, and how did people react?

[00:06:58] Javier: People were actually believing it was some kind of miracle. In fact, in few days, people from other places surrounding Bélmez went to see the face. Then the new richer city, the main city in Andalusia. Andalusia, in the south of Spain. You have buses that went to see the Face of Bélmez because they thought it was the face of Christ. It was still a religious phenomenon.

[00:07:30] Interviewer: Since it was such a religious phenomenon, why did the family destroy the original face?

[00:07:39] Javier: That's happened because there's so many people who went to the village that the mayor said that they have to finish, because the mayor knew it was a fake. In fact, it was not a fake. Fake is a very big word. It was a joke. The face has been painted by his son, one of his sons, and by the painter that lived in the same street, and because Maria, before she found the first face was saying, "I see something strange in my kitchen," because she knew the story of the other women I told you in the village that had their own Virgin.

She was always saying, "Oh, I think there is very strange what is happening here." That's why the painter and the son of María painted the first face, the Pava. That's why the mayor talked to them and to say, "You have to finish because there is so many people coming here, let's say, three, four, five, six times. More people are going to see the face. The people living here, it was a very big problem for them." That's why they destroyed the first face, but because they have earned some money, let's say--

They never get rich, but they got some money, and they paint another face. The second face that is lost was a very shitty face. It was not made by the same painter, so they had to destroy the second one, and then they paint the third one. The third one is the picture you have seen. If you type Faces of Bélmez, the face you see is like Gene Simmons from Kiss. That's the third face, the third Pava, the third face of Bélmez.

[00:09:34] Interviewer: What does pava mean?

[00:09:37] Javier: Pava, it's in the way, the slang they use in the small village to say about the place where you cook. They have a room called the kitchen, but the fire was in the middle of the soil. They have no kitchen. They did it at home. The pava was the place where they cook.

[00:10:08] Interviewer: How much money were they making off of this? How much were they charging per person?

[00:10:14] Javier: In fact, they have never charged. There was not a ticket admission, but people went there and because they thought it was some kind of miracle, they gave some money. The father of the painter, who was a photographer, took pictures, and he sell the little picture of the Face of Bélmez. In fact, it was not a very, very big business. It's true that they made money. Not a lot of money, but they made some money in a very poor area of Spain.

It last for, let's say, two, three months, no more than that. It's true that they have made some money. Maybe now, you can go to her house to see the face, and you gave them £5 or $5 or $1. You can either one. You don't have to. If you want, you gave them some money. It's not something that is going to make you a millionaire. It's not Roswell. Even now, they have a museum. It's not such a big business.

[00:11:28] Interviewer: Do you think that this financial reason was- [crosstalk] even though it wasn't a lot of money, that wasn't-- [crosstalk]

[00:11:34] Javier: I wrote about Bélmez. I made some money, but I didn't get a million. Everybody that work and do something tried to get some money. That happened. I don't believe that the main idea in María Cámara head was to make money with the faces. She really believed it was a religious phenomenon, even if she made money. I don't think the money can explain, or the business explain everything. It's true that they tried to make as much money as they could, but we are not talking about millions.

[00:12:20] Interviewer: What do you think is the most likely explanation for these original paintings? What would have been her motivation for it?

[00:12:32] Javier: Her motivation, it was a joke. It just started as a joke. More than his husband, the children of his husband-- She has children with his husband, but her husband, Miguel Pereira had, I think, three other children with another woman that died. I think these three ones were the most interested in making money.

[00:13:07] Interviewer: Did she know that they were fake or was it a prank on her?

[00:13:09] Javier: Yes. At some point, she knew it was a fake, but it's also true that she believed in the phenomenon. She knew because we know for her lawyer speak to us and explained. Half of María knew it was not real, but the other half of her believed in the phenomenon. She was in some way trapped because her life was the Faces of Bélmez. Imagine, you live in the middle of nowhere, and then you appear on TV from time to time.

You have people from Madrid that come here, scientists who come here to talk to you, people who want to talk to you. In some ways, she was trapped in this own joke. She didn't start the joke. She didn't start the phenomenon. I don't think the money was his main goal in the story.

[00:14:08] Interviewer: Moving on beyond these originals, the mayor wanted to try to find an origin for the faces. I believe they dug underneath the house. Is that true?

[00:14:27] Javier: No, it's not true. It's part of the story, but there is no such a house. No, it's not true.

[00:14:38] Interviewer: I know part of the story is that they found bones underneath the house. That never happened?

[00:14:44] Javier: Yes, that's true. You have to take in account that this area was full of bones. The bones were found by students from the University of Madrid who were studying medicine. They went to the village, they dug the bones, and the trail is lost. Nobody knows what happened with the bones. I'll have to say about two things. First, we don't know if these bones belong to human beings. That, nobody knows. If you see the picture, you can't know.

The other thing is that this area of Bélmez de la Moraleda was full of bones from the animal, for instance, because they have had a long time ago wars between Spanish or the Spanish people and all Moorish people. I think because they didn't found a house and a school, they only found small bones. The bones were disappeared. It's true that the bones were there. It's also true that if you dig a hole 50 meters away, I'm sure you will find more bones.

[00:16:09] Interviewer: It was students from a school who did that excavation of the bones?

[00:16:17] Javier: No, because nobody know who were these people. We know the story of the bones because [unintelligible 00:16:25] that day. They came, and maybe they were not people from any university but a bunch of young people went there. They say they were students, that they were students in Madrid and want to be doctors and they want to study the bones. I don't know who it was. Maybe the mayor, maybe María, gave them the bag with the bones, and nobody knew about. There were a lot of people who came there promising things and never appear again.

[00:16:58] Interviewer: That's interesting, because from my understanding, the bones are tied with there became many more faces in the house, correct? A lot of the times in the story, those two things get tied together. Is that true?

[00:17:13] Javier: Yes. The house, there is a lot of faces from '70s to now, but sometimes, the faces appear and disappear. You really don't know if they were real. Other times, you only have people talking about the faces they have seen, but it's true that the first Pava appeared in the '70s. In the '80s and '90s, they also have new faces.

[00:17:44] Interviewer: How many faces total have there been?

[00:17:47] Javier: It's impossible to know because some people talk about 500, and others about 20. I would say that we have pictures of about no more than 20, 25 faces. I don't think there are more than 25 pictures of different faces. When we say faces, you have La Pava or La Pelona that are real faces that look like faces, and you have things that you have a horse and things that you don't know what happened, or the ones that look like an alien [unintelligible 00:18:25] We have over 25 pictures of different so-called faces.

[00:18:32] Interviewer: You said that some appear and disappear. Is that something other people saw or is that something that the family just claimed?

[00:18:45] Javier: Sorry, can you repeat, please?

[00:18:48] Interviewer: You said that some faces disappear, some appeared. Did anybody except for the family see them appear or disappear, or did they just see the finished face?

[00:18:59] Javier: No. Some people who were there, they said, "No, we have seen a face." Then other people came and, "We don't see the face," so the face has appeared and disappeared, but maybe it's never appear at all.

[00:19:12] Interviewer: When did the general public start believing that this was a fraud rather than something that was-

[00:19:22] Javier: Happened?

[00:19:22] Interviewer: -actually a phenomenon?

[00:19:25] Javier: The phenomenon started at the end of summer, in August of 1978. For the first weeks, it was only a very local phenomenon. At the end of January of the new year, a journalist from Madrid, Antonio Casado, that was working in Pueblo, was a newspaper very well-known at the time, heard about the story. He went three days. I don't know really if he was Casado, actually. Someone from Pueblo went to Bélmez and wrote some story that's stand for two or three days. He just made the outline. Casado, I think, then Casado came, and he wrote the whole story.

We are talking about the end of January to end of February of '71. That's when in Spain, it was a very, very well-known thing. It was boom like a horror or something. It was everywhere. We have only two TVs at the time. In Spain, a lot of newspapers, radio, national TV, they were everything for one month. It was really crazy.

[00:20:40] Interviewer: When did people first start trying to prove that it was a fraud? Basically, right after that-- [crosstalk]

[00:20:45] Javier: First when Antonio Casado from Pueblo came there, he start dealing with the story as it was a real strange phenomenon, and Fortean phenomenon. He was really believed that it has no explanation. He was surrounded before he went to Bélmez with other people who believe in this kind of stuff. He started writing in his newspaper. Another journalist from another newspaper called El Alcázar went there, and he wrote only four or five pieces on it for four days, or five days, no more than that.

His first story, he said, "We are making a mistake. This is not a Fortean phenomenon until we can prove it. Let's start using science and, let's say, it's a fake, and we are going to investigate if it's a fake. And if we don't find who did it, then maybe we can start talking about Fortean phenomenon." That was in El Alcázar. In fact, the first who say- who discover the story about the painter and the son of Maria and everything.

Then Casado from El Pueblo wrote another piece with the same conclusion. The thing is when people later on wrote books and write of the story, people got everything made by El Alcázar, and they also forgot the news of Casado went where he said it was a fake.

[00:22:29] Interviewer: It does like kind of blow up and become not just a phenomenon at Spain. It kind of blows through all of Europe and the world. Can you tell us who Germán de Argumosa and Hans Bender were, and how did they-- [crosstalk]

[00:22:51] Javier: Yes, Hans Bender, then Nazi. Germán de Argumosa was some kind of people that is very- he was easy to find, this kind of people in a society like in Spain. His family have a lot of money. He was not so rich at the moment. He married with a woman with a lot of money, so he have a lot of spare time. He was the first people in Spain interested in Fortean phenomenon, in parapsychology and everything.

He was very, very interested in what this is from other ghost, or whatsoever. When you put a tape and you register a laugh, a voice from nobody knows where, a piece-- He was very interested. That's why he went to Bélmez to investigate, and he was the main character in the story. In fact, he was not only has money and is important, and it's true that he was very well-known in Europe, in the field of Fortean phenomenon. He met Hans Bender.

Hans Bender was the most important parapsychologist in Europe we knew, until we release a book because we found a letter that Bender was in France, I think. He was in a French society. Her daughter gave a speech, and she talked about his father. She explained that his father was nationality was in Germany nobody knew that he was working from the German government at the time, but it was not very well-known. When after they work, people forgot about him, and he was not put in jail, or something.

He started working in paranormal phenomenon with Nazis, with Goergin I imagine. With Himler and he started- he continued working in Freiburg, a small city of Germany. It's true that he was very well-known. Now, if you read what he wrote, it's absolutely crazy, but he was very well-known. He met Germán de Argumosa. Germán de Argumosa say that Hans Bender told him that Faces of Bélmez was one of the biggest mysteries on earth.

In fact, the truth is that Bender never wrote nothing about Faces of Bélmez. I think he went one or twice to the village with her lover, who was married, but she had a lover. He went and he spend, I don't know, they spend one day. Three hours here. He went to take it out, but he didn't pay so much attention. He was more interested in song and drinking wine and everything. He never wrote nothing about Faces of Bélmez because it was not his business. He has other... He was more focused on poltergeist and this kind of things.

That's why Germán de Argumosa pretend that Hans Bender was very interested. Hans Bender was very interested in coming to Spain, but I don't think he did see the faces of Belmez. In fact, he went later on to Madrid to give a speech, and he didn't talk at all about the Face of Bélmez.

[00:26:45] Interviewer: Wow, that's very interesting, because, correct me if I'm wrong, one of the stories is that Argumosa and Bender sealed the house and had a notary to prove the findings. They watch [crosstalk]

[00:27:00] Javier: Wait. [crosstalk]

[00:27:04] Interviewer: Yes?

[background conversation]

[00:27:28] Javier: Okay. [crosstalk]

[00:27:34] Interviewer: Going back to that. There's a story about Bender and Argumosa working together in the house with a notary to-- [crosstalk]

[00:27:43] Javier: Yes, the story of the notary. [crosstalk] Hans Bender was not at the moment in Spain, he was in Germany. [crosstalk]

[00:27:52] Interviewer: Can you tell me the story of the notary?

[00:27:54] Javier: I'm sorry? Yes, I will tell you the story, [crosstalk] because he wanted to know if it was a real phenomenon. They close the kitchen, where the faces come up. They call a notary, and the house was sealed. You couldn't come in. They waited, they took pictures. The pictures will disappear. Nobody has seen the picture ever. They wait for months. When they open the kitchen again, nothing has happened.

The only new faces have appear in the new kitchen, in the kitchen where they're having book working on- when their old kitchen was close, but inside the kitchen, nothing happened. We have only the first look. Remember, when they sealed the house-- I don't remember if we have the other one when they opened, but in fact the pictures were lost, and nobody knows.

[00:28:56] Interviewer: Who sealed the house if Hans Bender wasn't there? Was it just the family did this with the notary?

[00:29:03] Javier: I think the notary was- maybe Germán de Argumosa surely. I don't know if he was here at the moment of they did it because he asked for the family to do it, but he was involve in some way. I don't remember--

[00:29:19] Interviewer: Got it, that makes sense. The notary does end up saying that faces were-- He watched them appear, watched them disappear, all of that. Do you think that that was faked? Or what explanation do you have for the people who claim to have watched the faces appear and disappear with their own eyes?

[00:29:42] Javier: The faces didn't appear and disappear. The story of it is not [unintelligible 00:29:46] something that it is not so important. In fact, it's one of the many things that happened. You can use it as a conclusion in the way that it proved that something strange happened.

[00:30:01] Interviewer: There's no actual proof of anybody--?

[00:30:05] Javier: No, none at all.

[00:30:06] Interviewer: Right, so nobody saw it. [crosstalk]

[00:30:08] Javier: [crosstalk] if the door was open.

[00:30:13] Interviewer: Beyond this experiment, were there other more scientific experiments put to the faces, or not?

[00:30:25] Javier: Yes, later, it's funny because the most important was made from people who were not involved in the affair, or people who live in Valencia, it's where I live. Student, they were studying physics, I think, so they went to Bélmez, and they asked María if they could dig a face and send it to the university. They found a very well-known scientist here in Valencia called Jose Alonso that did study the face. In fact, he found that it was a print in the concrete, a foot in the concrete that looked like a face of someone.

It's true that you can see the pictures called el obispo, we have different name, but if you see the face called el obispo, you will see that it looked like a face, but it was in part of a print of a foot. The concrete was wet. Then this guy work for the Council of Science in Spain. It was the most important institution, but he did it in his spare time. There was other people from the CSI, the name of the institution that also did some experiment. The first one found that there's some kind of painting had been used. The third one only found that concrete was concrete.

The first one is very serious experiment. He took a lot of time. They used a very high-tech stuff at that time. The others one were not so well-done. The second is more or less good. They found the painting, but the third one was almost a joke.

[00:32:25] Interviewer: Going on through maybe more joke, explanations for it. One explanation for the faces has been thoughtography. What is thoughtography? Is it a good explanation for it? Is it not a good-- [crosstalk] ?

[00:32:49] Javier: No. Argumosa was very influenced by Joseph Rhine. He was the father of the word parapsychology, I think. It teach us a scientific approach for the Fortean phenomenon. He saw that the brain, it has a lot of things that could do, and we didn't know. One of the theories was that María Cámara, the thinkings of María Cámara, where she was sending these thinkings to house, to the wall, and then the house disappeared.

Maybe the thinkings, they were about the people or her family and so, but now it's something that belong to the '70s. Nobody believes in thoughtography now.

[00:33:45] Interviewer: Going forward a little bit, there were multiple commissions set-up to prove it was fraud, and that caused some backlash. Could you talk about those commissions and the backlash that they found?

[00:33:59] Javier: Yes. It's very interesting because sometimes we thinkthat only people who live in paranormal phenomenon were the tricky ones, were cheating and is not true. With the Eridani commission led by someone called José Luis Jordán Peña. He was an skeptic, a member of the- not a Spanish Research Society certainly, but in fact, he was already [unintelligible 00:34:25] guy. He said someone- nobody knows who- from the Spanish government asked him to go to Bélmez to have a look and to study the phenomenon that they see.

In fact, he went for-- He only was here for two hour more or less. He went back home. He wrote two pages more or less with no conclusion. He said that the faces were there, and he didn't know. The thing with Jordán Peña is not about Bélmez. He try to discredit the phenomenon, but about his background that he was involved in a lot of strange affairs, like UMMO, maybe people who are interested in UFOs now. The problem with Jordán Peña is you cannot spell his many problems.

He's flown around everywhere because he want to be the most important guy everywhere. In fact, he was exactly like Germán de Argumosa. He was not better Germán de Argumosa. Even Germán de Argumosa believed in the Faces of Bélmez, and the other didn't.

[00:35:41] Interviewer: You say that both of them had pretty not reliable processes that they were going on, that they were like two sides of the coin basically-

[00:35:59] Javier: Yes.

[00:36:00] Interviewer: -of the same coin. Very interesting. What is the trial of the faces? What was that?

[00:36:09] Javier: That's another funny thing for glory of Bélmez. The trial of faces is in fact a broadcast in our local radio. They put together people who believe in the phenomenon and people who don't. They were having a debate for an hour. They didn't reach any conclusion. It was called the trial of Bélmez. It's true that in their program was, more or less, with a lawyer. One acted as a lawyer of the Faces, let's say.

The other as a fiscal of the Faces. One said it was true, another said it was not true. The answer was, in some way, the truth, but they didn't reach any conclusion. Some people thought that the trial of Bélmez, it really took place. It didn't. It was just a program of radio that it's lost.

[00:37:03] Interviewer: Oh, you can't find it? That would be such a fun thing to listen to, but you can't listen to it anymore?

[00:37:08] Javier: No, it's lost. It doesn't exist.

[00:37:12] Interviewer: Do you know was the lawyer anybody- the lawyer for the Faces or anybody of importance? [crosstalk] They weren't even real lawyer?

[00:37:20] Javier: No, they are there. One of them wrote a book about the whole story. I think it was Manuel Serrano. I don't remember, but one of them wrote a book with the lawyer who was pro-faces, wrote two books, I think. One was published, the other was not. That where he explained what happened at the trial of Bélmez.

[00:37:44] Interviewer: There wasn't a court case or anything like that. [crosstalk]

[00:37:47] Javier: No, no trial.

[00:37:52] Interviewer: Moving forward from there a little bit, who was Pedro Amorós? Why did he launched the Genesis project?

[00:38:02] Javier: Pedro Amorós was someone who wanted to be the new Germán de Argumosa. He wanted to rebirth the phenomenon in 1961, I think, so he tried to curate the faces at home. That's what he called the Genesis project. In fact, he did it at home with his own hands and was alone, with nothing more than oil, because the faces were painted with oil.

[00:38:33] Interviewer: Oh, so people actually took the samples of his faces and they found that it had oil?

[00:38:39] Javier: Yes, nobody-- We know that he used oil because he told to other people who talked to us. When we try to replicate his faces, we did it with oil, and they were the same thing.

[00:38:53] Interviewer: Was it oil paint or just some oil that I could buy here at the store?

[00:39:02] Javier: Sorry, please. Can you repeat?

[00:39:04] Interviewer: What was the benefit of doing it with oil as opposed to a paint?

[00:39:10] Javier: Because it's easier to do it with oil than with any of those paint. The result is all the same, but it is easier. It last more time. It last longer.

[00:39:23] Interviewer: The Genesis project was just this guy basically painting the pictures-- [crosstalk]

[00:39:30] Javier: Yes. If you know Pedros Amorós, he has done a lot of this kind of project, but that went nowhere. You see [crosstalk] You can't take seriously Pedro Amorós at all.

[00:39:48] Interviewer: Yes, because he came out with this huge findings that it was real, that it was this real thing that could happen, but just a complete joke. It sounds like he told people that it was a joke, and they told you.

[00:40:03] Javier: No, he didn't felt it was a joke. He was trying to recreate and then he resold. Some ways, he was cheating himself.

[00:40:12] Interviewer: Do you think he actually believed his finding?

[00:40:17] Javier: In some ways, yes. In some ways, he really believes his own lies. For sure.

[00:40:23] Interviewer: María died in the early 2000s. What happened after she passed away?

[00:40:34] Javier: Mostly nothing. They've tried to create again the phenomenon in her house, but it last only for few weeks because everybody, even people who believe in the all faces, so it was only scam. It has no sense. In some way, the phenomenon died with here.

[00:40:55] Interviewer: I know that then there were like a lot of new faces kind of exploded after she died, but those have a pretty simple explanation. Correct?

[00:41:08] Javier: Yes. As you see [crosstalk] as you compare, there's nothing like the others one, like the La Pava or La Pelona there. There is different made with oil. You see it's a forgery. There are also the others, but the others have some, let's say, taste. The new ones were made by people who didn't know how to do a face.

[00:41:34] Interviewer: Wasn't it, her son [crosstalk]

[00:41:38] Javier: Sorry, we have only five more minutes because I have people working. We can continue on Monday, if you want, but if now, we have to stop now in five minutes, okay?

[00:41:47] Interviewer: Five more minutes. I'm actually right at the end of my questions. I think we can wrap up here. The last question is, most recently there was a television show that said that they did a scientific examination. There was no paint traces or chemical traces to explain it. What is the explanation that you have for that?

[00:42:12] Javier: Iker Jiménez knows because he's one of the people involved in the forgery. He tried to find the silver The first face was made with silver de plata. T he same thing that you use when you take a picture, or something of silver. I don't know how you say it in English, but the same thing. Only the first Pava, the one who was destroyed and disappear was made using this method. If you go there, and you try to find again the silver powder, or I don't know what to call it, you won't find it.

That's what he did. He went here to try to find the silver powder, knowing it's impossible to find it. He presented as a very strange thing, but the thing is, nobody care how he did. He tried to prove in a scientific way that it was a very strange phenomenon, but people who love Fortean phenomenon, maybe they swallow the story, by nobody gave a damn about him.

[00:43:19] Interviewer: What is happening with the faces today? What is going on with them?

[00:43:25] Javier: Nothing. They are here. If you go to Belmez, you can go to see the house. There is also a small museum in summer. People in the newspaper who has nothing to write about, they send journalist to write something about the big mystery of Belmez. Nothing new has happened.

[00:43:48] Interviewer: That is basically the end of my questions. Anything you like to add, Javier?

[00:43:55] Javier: No, the interview has been perfect. You have cover all the subject.

[00:44:00] Interviewer: Wonderful. I really appreciate you taking this time. This was great, so much great information. Your book's wonderful. We will let you know when the episode's coming out. We're kind of aiming for to start releasing this season in April. That's a little up in the air because we both work full-time jobs on top of this. I'll definitely keep you informed. Thank you so much. I really appreciate it.