GABRIELLA ANGELETI

EPISODE TRANSCRIPT

[00:00:00] R.J. Blake: What is your name and what do you do?

[00:00:03] Gabriella Angeleti: My name is Gabriella Angeleti and I'm a staff writer for The Art Newspaper, and I'm based in New York.

[00:00:11] R.J.: That's great. When did you first hear about the monolith and what sparked your interest about it?

[00:00:21] Gabriella: Well, I have a personal connection to Utah because I primarily grew up in the southwest. I still spend a lot of time in Utah. I heard about the monolith while I was camped out there in a cabin during the pandemic. I think I just thought it was really interesting, and the perfect story close out a pretty bleak year. I heard initially about it from a pretty brief local news piece about how the Utah division of wildlife discovered this structure, when they rode past it on a helicopter. The location was undisclosed at that time, but it was later revealed to be a Needles District in Canyonlands National Park.

That piqued my interest because I go hiking in Canyonlands a lot. It's a really massive remote place. It would be really easy for someone to just leave something there, and it go unnoticed for several years like this did. I spoke to my editor about it. We were one of the first non-local publications to report on it. At least one of the first ones to, I think, contextualize it from an art standpoint. Then that same week, things escalated really quickly and the monolith was just everywhere.

[00:01:39] R.J.: Did you ever visit the monolith?

[00:01:41] Gabriella: No, I never went there myself and it actually was taken down before I ever even had a chance to drive out there.

[00:01:49] R.J.: That's a bummer.

[00:01:51] Gabriella: Definitely, yes. I think speaking of driving out there, one important thing to know about this story is that, it really stems from the subreddit that was formed to find the monolith. There was a user called Bear Fucker, who posted the coordinates of the monolith online. Then that post just prompted thousands of people to go out there and take selfies and destroy the landscape and piss off all the locals and all that. Shame on you, Bear Fucker for posting the coordinates.

[00:02:24] R.J.: Yes, definitely.

[00:02:27] Gabriella: I want to believe that there's no way that he could have known what his actions would lead to, and that it would blow up like this.

[00:02:38] R.J.: I don't think that anybody would have guessed that this would have caught the national attention as it did. I know that. I know that when we first posted just a picture of it in between seasons when we first heard the story, it completely blew up. We were very surprised by it. Very briefly, you've gone over the story of how it was found and all of that, but what exactly is the Utah monolith? Could you give us a description of it?

[00:03:09] Gabriella: Sure. The Utah monolith was a freestanding sheet metal structure that was discovered in December last year. It was around 10 to 12 feet tall, and it was installed on the sandstone floor in a remote cove in Canyonlands. According to Reddit investigators who use Google Earth view, it was installed sometime between August 2015 and October 2016.

[00:03:38] R.J.: Very interesting, very interesting. Do you know how they dated it like that?

[00:03:46] Gabriella: I guess it just appeared during that time out of nowhere. It was fairly recently [crosstalk]

[00:03:53] R.J.: Yes, you should Google it, that's right.

[00:03:55] Gabriella: Yes. It's just pretty recently. It's interesting that no one was ever able to find out who did it.

[00:04:04] R.J.: You said that it's very remote out of that area. Could you tell us more since you've been there? Are there other art pieces buried or tucked away or is that pretty unusual for that spot?

[00:04:20] Gabriella: No, it's definitely pretty unusual. Canyonlands is just a colossal place. It's one of the most beautiful places in the world but it's actually one of the most remote national parks that there are. Until not too long ago, I think they were only issuing-- You have to fact check this but they issue a really limited number of camping tickets out there. It's for outdoorsy people. It's really not a major national park, like a more popular national park like arches or something. There's no facilities or any artwork there or really anything around it.

[00:05:01] R.J.: Yes. It looks very, very desolate out there. Brett, the pilot who discovered the monolith sent us pictures that he had took all throughout the day. It's very beautiful, but very, very isolated which leads me to you talked about when it was discovered and when it blew up. What happened after it blew up and got the attention of everybody coming to it?

[00:05:40] Gabriella: There were people off roading and leaving trash there and just generally being obnoxious about the monolith on Instagram and on social media. Eventually, it just got dismantled by a group of these outdoorsy types, who as a form of protest against all the hundreds of cars that were coming to the site and damaging the landscape. It's interesting to note that the town that leads into Canyonlands, Moab survives on tourism but it's really been negatively impacted by tourists. There's people causing damage to petroglyphs, that's constantly on the news.

Just people really being trashy and not really respecting the landscape, which I think is what happened with the monolith.

[00:06:33] R.J.: Interesting. No, continue with the--

[00:06:33] Gabriella: Yes. For my piece I Interviewed the photographer, who saw the group who took down the monolith, and he didn't stop them because he told me he had this overwhelming moment of guilt that he himself was being out there and causing this problem and didn't fit into his whole philosophy as an outdoor photographer.

[00:07:04] R.J.: At this point, nobody had claimed ownership over the monolith, correct? Or authorship, I guess is a better word?

[00:07:15] Gabriella: No, not that I know of. There were a few artists who came out and then tripping early joked and they take credit for it, but nothing was ever confirmed.

[00:07:30] R.J.: It goes down. Then shortly after that, there's more monoliths that pop up. Correct?

[00:07:38] Gabriella: Yes. There were hundreds of other monoliths that popped up all around the world right after that, all over Europe. Some are found in really remote field. One popped up on Fremont Street in Las Vegas. It was really just all over the place. We initially did run a few stories, following up on some of the monolith that first appeared. Then we actually had to stop keeping track and the whole thing died down.

[00:08:14] R.J.: Were these monoliths exact replicas of the original or do you know if they differed in any ways?

[00:08:23] Gabriella: It's hard to say because the monolith, it was a pretty rudimentary structure. It would be really easy to build similar versions of it with sheet metal or any other similar material.

[00:08:42] R.J.: Yes, definitely. You said, it kind of fizzled out. Are some of the monoliths still standing or were they all taken down like the original?

[00:08:52] Gabriella: I think, most of them are removed. A lot of them were on public property. A lot of them are just called jokes. The list is really, really extensive. I would be surprised if there are any standing right now.

[00:09:10] R.J.: Now, I think that's wonderful. I think now we're going to talk about some of the artists that people think it could be or couldn't it be. I think one of the initial-- this isn't necessarily an artist. One of the initial jokes, thoughts was that it could potentially be aliens. What are your thoughts on it straight up being aliens?

[00:09:41] Gabriella: I have 100% believe that it could have been aliens.

[00:09:49] R.J.: Why do you think it could be aliens a 100%?

[00:09:52] Gabriella: I think that just added to people's fascination with this. There's something really mysterious about the structure appearing out of nowhere and no one being able to claim it.

[00:10:10] R.J.: It kind of resembles. I think a lot of people immediately thought of the monolith from 2001, A Space Odyssey. Do you think that that comparison had any reason to do with why it went so viral?

[00:10:30] Gabriella: Oh, yes, definitely because it does look like those monoliths and maybe it was part of a music video or a film shoot, who knows?

[00:10:44] R.J.: I know that there is one theory that Westworld shot out there. Have you heard about anything about that idea?

[00:10:54] Gabriella: Oh, really? No, I hadn't heard about that.

[00:10:58] R.J.: Now, as somebody who works in the film industry, I personally think that's likely not it because nobody would actually cut into the ground like that, nor would they be permitted to, but apparently Westworld was shooting out in that area. Some people think it could be a leftover prop from that.

[00:11:23] Gabriella: Oh, interesting. Yes, I hadn't heard that theory but it could make sense. I guess definitely the monolith was illegal because it was installed on public land. It would be difficult to imagine that a major film would do that.

[00:11:49] R.J.: Yes, especially because everything is so built to be temporary and to be taken out. I think that one of the most common artists that have been attached to theories about the monolith is John McCracken. Could you tell us who John McCracken is?

[00:12:12] Gabriella: Yes. John McCracken was a minimalist American artist. He spent a big part of his life living out in the West. In the mid 1960s, he started making these free standing French sculptures, sort of resembled the monolith structurally but they don't have the same luster as his work. His works had a really reflective surface. He made these sculptures from really finely polished stainless steel. Sometimes they're made from wood coated with fiberglass and resin to achieve that really reflective surface.

[00:12:56] Interviewer: You covered this, but is there anything really specifically about how it was built that people believe that it is John McCracken versus aspects of it, that would make people believe it isn't the John McCracken? Or, anybody who knew him that would help prove one way or another?

[00:13:22] Gabriella: Definitely. I spoke with Almine Rech, who's represented him, who's represented John McCracken since 1990s. She told me that, first of all, he would never put bolts on any of his sculptures, that the sculpture was very crudely built, and that actually she didn't even believe that it was art. That McCracken was always very attentive to this reflective element of his work. She said something interesting that he had this very poetic idea that the work would reflect the changes in the world for decades and centuries to come. She completely after our first article came out when David Zwirner, who also deals in his work told us that, that it wasn't.

Then he told The New York Times that he was divided on whether it was or wasn't, but he did believe that it was John McCracken's work. Almine reached out to me actually to completely rolled out that idea. I can see why the comparison was made and why maybe people believe that it could be because he worked, he lived in Santa Fe, Las Vegas, Reno. He was in that part of the world.

There are records of him installing a similar plant in the desert in the 1970s but there's no documentation or photographs of anything ever been installed in Utah. He was an established artists already at that time. There would have been some record of a work in Utah, if it ever existed. Sorry, go ahead.

[00:15:12] Interviewer: No, keep going. I'd love to hear what you have to say.

[00:15:15] Gabriella: Oh, yes. Then just another theory was that, it could have been a work by Robert Morris or Richard Serra, who were doing similar sculptures but the art world authorities shut down all those theories too.

[00:15:29] Interviewer: Why did they shut down those theories?

[00:15:31] Gabriella: It's just because of the way that it was made and because there was no documentation of it. There would definitely be some sort of photographs and archival materials and writing about it.

[00:15:49] Interviewer: Right. It seems like, what you're saying is a lot of the art world maybe has shunned the piece a little bit. Why do you think that is? You just said that somebody didn't even think it was art at all. Do you share that same view?

[00:16:10] Gabriella: No. I think, yes, there definitely is a level of elitisism in the art world. I think people were just quick to shut down to deem something art or not art.

[00:16:37] Interviewer: That's great. I want to kind of circle back on-- If you could actually give me a second, my dog is whining to be let out right now. Give me one sec. I'm back. Sorry about that. Anyways, where was I? Yes. In terms of John McCracken, you said that he was a minimalist artist, as well as the other artists that you mentioned. What is minimalism when it comes to art? If you could explain that movement a little bit?

[00:17:30] Gabriella: Minimalism is an art movement that emerged in the 1950s. It's quintessentially American. I would say that minimalism tries to represent an outside reality or not an aspect of the real world. It's heavily linked to conceptual art. Minimalism tries to represent a purified and simple form of beauty. I think there's definitely a cult around the minimalist movement. There's definitely a cult around artists like, Donald Judd and Agnes Martin and Jen Slaven and now John McCracken too.

[00:18:12] Interviewer: Is there any common traits between the artists that would make it distinctly minimalist? It's funny because I think that the name of minimalism, it's just very interesting because it seems like, it's very based out of simplicity and more taking things away. Would that be a good way to characterize it?

[00:18:41] Gabriella: Yes. I would say that more in taking things away is a good way to characterize that. Definitely. Visualizing the void in a way.

[00:18:55] Interviewer: I like that a lot. I really like that. With John McCracken, also you spoke about-- you just mentioned a little bit how he wanted to break out into other areas. Do you have any insight on his views on extraterrestrials or other dimensions?

[00:19:20] Gabriella: Yes. Another thing that Almine shared with me was that McCracken said he wanted to make work that looked like it was made by aliens or something, that maybe aliens left behind on Earth, which is really interesting. He definitely believed in UFOs. He believed in time travel and the idea of the multiverse. He even claimed to have traveled to other planets himself and to other dimensions and had spoken to aliens. John McCracken died in 2011, I think. He would have had a lot of interesting things to say about the monolith.

[00:20:03] Interviewer: Do you know how he claims to have traveled to all these places?

[00:20:09] Gabriella: That would require some reading.

[00:20:12] Interviewer: Yes, I'm sure. Moving on, do you have any other thoughts on John McCracken, before I move on to somebody else?

[00:20:22] Gabriella: Oh, no.

[00:20:25] Interviewer: Yes, great. The next person I wanted to talk to who's mentioned in your article is William Fox, and why do people think he was involved with the monolith?

[00:20:39] Gabriella: William Fox is one of my absolute favorite writers. He is a scholar, curator, and he's the director of the Nevada art museums Center for Art and Environment, which focuses on land art. He's written a lot about land art and particularly the work of Michael Heizer. There was never really any indication that he actually had any involvement with a monolith, but the reason I wanted to speak to him is because he's an expert on land art.

In his book that I really recommend, it's called The Void, The Grid & The Sign, he shares some really interesting anecdotes about how Michael Heizer's work, City, which is a massive series of complexes in the Nevada desert that Heizer has been building since the 1970s. Heizer's work actually also attracted a lot of UFO enthusiasts and people who believe that extraterrestrials were working through Michael Heizer to create the sculpture in the desert.

He also talks about how it's curious that the desert does seem to allow people to feel closer to the cosmos in a way and that things like petroglyphs and different earthworks tends to create a conflation between the ancient and the alien, the desert can really expand people's imaginations and attracts UFO watchers, definitely, and maybe some people believe that attracts the aliens themselves.

[00:22:20] Interviewer: Great. Interesting. To that point, there's a lot of-- I think you just called it land art, correct?

[00:22:29] Gabriella: Yes.

[00:22:31] Interviewer: There's a lot of land art in Utah itself, from the Spiral Jetty and the Tree of Utah, what makes Utah itself so attractive for artists to use the area for their work? What draws people to it?

[00:22:52] Gabriella: Yes, Utah is just a really inspiring, beautiful vast place. It's very alien-like in some places. There's a Martian landscape in some corners of it. Also, the land is cheap, which is why a lot of land artists created work out there, and then the surrounding area in Nevada. Yes, I think that Utah and that whole area of the world, in general, really influential to some of the most interesting people and eccentrics in history. Everyone from Edward Abbey to Michael Heizer, even people like Art Bell, who actually your podcasts really reminds me of.

[00:23:44] Interviewer: I will have to look them up more. I don't know much about Art Bell, can you tell me a little more about him?

[00:23:49] Gabriella: Oh, sure. In the '80s or late '70s, he did a paranormal radio show where he would interview people who claim to have seen UFOs and other centric, out of the norm things and he actually, he did this out of Pahrump, in Nevada, so he's another desert person.

[00:24:18] Interviewer: Oh, yes. In fact, now that you actually say it, I have heard of Art Bell. I guess my mind was thinking about an artist instead of a radio personality, but, yes [crosstalk] very famous and very similar, I think. There's a lot of overlap between our audiences, let me put it that way.

[00:24:41] Gabriella: Definitely.

[00:24:43] Interviewer: For sure. Yes, and it's such a beautiful area, you said you've been there during the pandemic?

[00:24:49] Gabriella: Yes, long story short, my family has a cabin out there and when the pandemic hit in New York and at the end of March, I just went out there and stayed out there. I just didn't know what the city was going to be like, and so I spent a lot of months last year, getting real close and personal with Utah in a way I hadn't before. It was really interesting to write this story at the end of that year because I had spent most of the pandemic isolated in this cabin, and then something from Utah came out of it, it was a strange synchronicity there.

[00:25:35] Interviewer: Yes, that's awesome. While you were in Utah, did you get to see any land art, assuming that's one of the few things you could actually do outside? Or did you have any weird experiences out there? A lot of our season is ending up very centered around Utah, so very interested to hear just what your general thoughts are?

[00:25:59] Gabriella: Yes. There was one time where I was sitting in the cabin, and you would see this strange light sign overhead all the time. People say it's from the military planes or something like that, but Utah is a very, very creepy place. There's the Mormon aspect of it, which is really interesting. It has a really deep history. I think that, especially if you're sitting in a cabin for five months, losing their mind like I did [laughs] maybe more like six or seven months, then, yes, you're likely to be more perceptive to the strange happenings around you.

[00:26:48] Interviewer: Don't worry, I feel like I'm still losing my mind in all of it. Very cool. Yes, I really want to visit Utah. It's very high on my list, just because it looks so beautiful out there-

[00:26:59] Gabriella: Yes, it really is.

[00:27:01] Interviewer: -honestly. Bringing it back a little bit, there is somebody who has claimed they are the ones who created the original monolith, and several of the copies, that person is Matty Mo, who founded the art group, most famous artists. Could you tell us who Matty Mo is?

[00:27:29] Gabriella: Yes, so I wasn't actually aware of Matty Mo but I did my research, he is a digital artist, painter, and now is getting into the NFT game, like a lot of people. Yes, he's really on the periphery-

[00:27:47] Interviewer: Oh I see, I didn't realize that.

[00:27:49] Gabriella: -of this blue-chip art world. I think he was smart to try to get some type of recognition for it and for taking credit for the monolith. I saw he was even interviewed by Heidi Zuckerman, who's the former director of the Aspen Art Museum, so yes. I think it worked out in his favor. [laughs]

[00:28:11] Interviewer: Yes, do you think he's responsible for the original piece?

[00:28:15] Gabriella: I think it's more likely that the monolith was made by aliens, than it was made by Matty Mo.

[00:28:23] Interviewer: Yes.

[laughter]

[00:28:29] Interviewer: I very much agree with you there, personally. [laughs] What do you think would tract something like this, a stunt like this to an artists like Matty Mo? What does he have to gain by it?

[00:28:50] Gabriella: I guess, notoriety, the 15 minutes of fame, and money probably, attention to his work, definitely.

[00:29:04] Interviewer: Yes, he's currently charging $45,000 per monolith. On his site, it says that it's sold out. Is there any artistic worth in replicating the monolith and selling it for that much if you're not the original artist?

[00:29:25] Gabriella: No, there's definitely no artistic merit, but I think that as the working artists if someone is willing to pay you $45,000 for your work, then God bless. It's interesting what people are actually willing to buy in a moment of meme frenzy like the monolith became. I can see someone buying it as an inside joke, something to put in your house to amuse your friends and whatnot.

[00:30:04] Interviewer: Yes, definitely. To give him a little credit, I think there's something maybe Andy Warhol-ish about replicating the monolith. Is there any thought to that, or am I crazy?

[00:30:29] Gabriella: No, that's a good analysis. Yes, there's definitely something very Andy Warhol-ish about it. If Andy Warhol was alive, he would definitely be making monolith silkscreens.

[laughter]

[00:30:47] Interviewer: Definitely, and a lot of them. Do you have any one artist out of all of these that you think it could be, or do you think it's just going to remain a mystery unless somebody posts a video of them actually putting up the original?

[00:31:08] Gabriella: Yes, I think it's just going to remain a mystery, the comparisons to John McCracken, or Richard Serra, Donald Judd, et cetera. I just think these artists, their work was so well-documented throughout their whole careers such that I think it would be really unlikely for something to surface, especially from a big-name artist.

[00:31:36] Interviewer: Interesting. Are there any other artists that the monolith reminds you of than somebody we've spoken about?

[00:31:48] Gabriella: Yes, it definitely does resemble a work by John McCracken. David Zwirner had really similar plans installed in his gallery in Chelsea. I'm not sure if it's still up there. It was really, really similar. I remember he joked at the time that the portal to the Utah monolith was at his Chelsea gallery in the lobby.

[00:32:23] Interviewer: There is one story, and I can't remember off the top of my head if you said it. I know I have it in my larger research about this episode. Somebody conveyed a story where John McCracken actually said that something that would maybe attract him would be to just leave a couple pieces of art throughout the world so that people would think maybe it is, or isn't aliens after he left, and nobody would have an answer. I thought that was a very interesting comment somebody conveyed, whether it's real or not.

[00:33:06] Gabriella: Yes, it is really interesting. I think that if that was his ultimate goal, then he achieved it and it would be actually less interesting to find out that he did it.

[00:33:23] Interviewer: Yes, definitely. Why do you think that the monolith became such a viral sensation, what it did? What about the story and when it came out really caught people's attention?

[00:33:42] Gabriella: I think that we were just still in the thick of the pandemic and it was a great fun distraction. The Reddit buzz around it also propelled things a little bit. I think anything that forces people to think about aliens, or the unknown gives them some existential questions that I'm sure we all had at the end of last year, would really become popular and take off the way it did.

It was interesting, honestly, because people were having really strong reactions to the monolith. It made them curious and it made them angry in a funny way, as all viral things do. Maybe another aspect that of it was that it was installed in this beautiful Red Cove in Canyonlands, so the pictures are really strong. I can definitely see why people went out there in droves and wanted a photograph it and be a part of this. It was really a global thing. We were all experiencing the monolith together after a year of being very divided.

[00:35:01] Interviewer: It was a monolith of the model. Do you think that it coming after basically right on the heels of such a contentious, let's say, election, a very tense time in the country, do you think that that had anything to do with its popularity?

[00:35:31] Gabriella: Yes, definitely. I think that we were all just really hungry for something that didn't relate to Coronavirus, didn't relate to death, didn't relate to very heavy issues around social justice. I think we all needed something to melt our brains a little bit. [chuckles]

[00:35:59] Interviewer: Yes, for sure. I know personally I did.

[00:36:05] Gabriella: Same.

[00:36:10] Interviewer: [laughs] How has the internet in general affected the way that people consume art, maybe even specifically in the pandemic? Has it been positive? Has it been negative? What are your thoughts?

[00:36:28] Gabriella: I think, social media has really influenced how we engage with art. For example, I noticed several examples of people who don't work in the art world, or have any art background, but they've managed to really carve out a space for themselves online as authorities on art, just by virtue of being an influencer and being mega popular. It's interesting, that can sometimes feel a little bit empty and the monolith became a unique example of that.

For a moment, it captured people's imagination, people in the art world and people who couldn't care less about art. Then as it became the social media frenzy, it became less interesting. I think, social media really has the power to steal an artwork. You see that list, Yayoi Kusama’s Infinity Rooms, which are essentially selfie chambers. They don't feel like a pure art experience in a way. It's something actually that William Fox mentioned when we spoke, that this monolith started out as a pure gesture by the artist or whoever did it. Then it was discovered and then it just became something that it was never meant to be. Then it wasn't so good anymore.

[00:38:01] Interviewer: That is very interesting. As somebody who lives in LA and who's been to the Kusama Infinity Rooms, I really do think that you've hit on something that's intriguing. When you are in those rooms, they are very impressive. Also, every single person has a picture of-- Particularly the star scape one, I think that was the one you were allowed to take pictures of more than any of them. It just did feel like every single person you knew did it.

People gather to these spots to literally take pictures. This is just speaking from LA, you see things like the Museum of Ice Cream. There was a Museum of Selfies. All of these things that are built literally to be consumed, not so much in-person, but on social media. I know that you said that it dulls the effect, but conversely, do you think that there's something nice about-- Maybe this is playing 100% devil's advocate, because I actually tend to agree with you.

That there is something more freeing that people are able to view some of these pieces in more-- What am I trying to get at? It's a little more democratized now. Then having to go to a gallery and experience it in person. Do you think that the marketization takes away from the art? Because some art, you can't get the full experience without being there. Where do you land on that?

[00:40:21] Gabriella: I don't think it's so much of an issue of democratization. I think it's great that people like the Infinity Rooms. Maybe the allure of going there and taking the selfie will encourage them to read up on Yayoi Kusama and maybe become more interested in art and her philosophies, et cetera. It's interesting because I've always wondered if that work would be as popular if you just didn't allow people to take their cell phones in there. [clears throat] Excuse me.

Because you look at other amazing art experiences like the Rothko Chapel. It doesn't have the same-- Teenagers aren't flocking to the Rothko Chapel to [chuckles] take selfies. I think things like these are a great way to sell tickets, and I'm all for people experiencing art however they choose to.

[00:41:36] Interviewer: But there is a kind of--

[00:41:39] Gabriella: Maybe saying that it dulls the artwork is just me being an art world elitist a little bit too. [laughs]

[00:41:45] Interviewer: There is something at about the exit through the gift shop, the commercialization of it, that does definitely take away from original pieces because as somebody who's definitely not as involved in the art world as you are, but as somebody who loves going to galleries, there is something about being in person and seeing the true texture of the piece that I think brings it to life in a way that you can't get through viewing it on somebody's Insta story.

[00:42:36] Gabriella: Definitely. I guess going back to the selfie aspect of these experiences, that's what happened with the monolith, whether it was art or not, it became a centerpiece for Instagram photos. It's interesting how-

[00:42:58] Interviewer: That's true.

[00:42:59] Gabriella: -how as humans, we're just compelled to do that. [chuckles]

[00:43:07] Interviewer: What do you think it is about these pieces that does compel people to-- A lot of these pieces, people just experience only through their phone even when they're there. You go to a concert, you go to a lot of very famous galleries, you see pieces and people aren't even looking at the actual piece. Why do you think that they're just looking at it through their phone or whatever camera they have? What do you think compels people to do that?

[00:43:47] Gabriella: That's interesting because I'm totally guilty of living on my phone too, but I definitely don't want to sound like a person going, "Oh, those damn kids with their cell phones."

[laughter]

[00:44:07] Gabriella: Yes, it would be nice. I think you can definitely have a deeper experience by being more present especially when it comes to art, I go to the Met, for example, and most people are just photographing the paintings instead of maybe spending a little bit of time with them. That's our reality now. We all have our phones glued to our hands at all times and we need-- If someone has a picture with a monolith, I want a picture with the monolith too.

[00:44:47] Interviewer: Oh, yes. I would have loved a picture with the monolith.

[00:44:50] Gabriella: I would have too.

[00:44:51] Interviewer: [laughs] I would have definitely got a picture with the monolith. Like I said, Brett the pilot, sent me all of his pictures and videos from that day of then discovering the monolith. There's something that's very fun and innocent about hearing these guys discover when they actually discovered it and the fun that they were having just exploring it in person. Even his first reaction is to pull out his phone and start recording and taking pictures.

[00:45:30] Gabriella: Totally. Another thing that was interesting about the pictures that the photographer that I interviewed for the piece, he mentioned that he was completely shocked about how easily the monolith came down. It was just basically very easily toppled over. There were people taking pictures on top of it including himself and his friends. I wonder if maybe someone had broken the monolith by taking a selfie with it, if that would have been a funnier story.

[00:46:08] Interviewer: That's horrible to think about, but probably not what happened either before, because it does come down-- I think there is a video that exists of the monolith coming down. It comes down pretty easy. You're correct. I know that the reason that it was torn down was because of environmental reasons. What are your feelings of land art and its impact on the environment? Is it positive to have the land art there or is it negative?

[00:47:03] Gabriella: I personally enjoy it, but I have heard arguments against it. I did read an article once about Michael Heizer that he was just a jerk moving dirt around in the desert [laughs] which is a really interesting take on his work. I think I've had my most profound or experiences visiting things like Double Negative in Nevada and visiting Spiral Jetty. Well, all of these are done on private land, so all the major land artworks they've done on private land. I think that to instill something like the monolith that was just placed in a national park, I would definitely take the side of the people who took it down.

[00:48:05] Interviewer: Interesting. Great. I think we've really covered everything. Do you have any last thoughts on the monolith at all or aliens or anything?

[00:48:28] Gabriella: No. I'll just go on the record and say that I personally believe it was aliends, [chuckles] but that got edited out of my case.

[laughter]

[00:48:43] Interviewer: Well, I hope you're right. There is no answer to who actually put it up. I think that you have to take aliens as a legitimate source as much as any of them. The government right now is telling us that UAPs and UFOs are real and they don't have an explanation for it, so why can't they drop a monolith in Utah?

[00:49:14] Gabriella: Definitely. I hope that as part of these alien files that the government is releasing, that there's some monolith content in there.

[00:49:27] Interviewer: Yes. We're all hoping for that. Actually, I did have one last thing that I wanted to ask you.

[00:49:37] Gabriella: Sure.

[00:49:39] Interviewer: Because I know we've talked about other people's thought of whether it is art or not, do you think it's art, the monolith?

[00:49:50] Gabriella: Yes. I do think it's art. Like William Fox said, I think it was a pure gesture that no one wanted to claim credit for. It was just done for the sake of it.

[00:50:09] Interviewer: That’s great. Anything you'd like to plug? This will be coming out just before-- I'll take this little part out, but just before you plug anything, this will be coming out between-- We don't have the episode order set yet, but it'll be coming out between late August and November, right around the Halloween season is when we like to put this out. With that said, is there anything you'd like to plug?

[00:50:44] Gabriella: No, I don't have anything in particular to plug, but also let me know if you need to re-record any of that because I struggle with saying, like and um, too much.

[00:50:57] Interviewer: Oh, don't worry about that. So do I. We'll be able to pull it out for sure. This was great. Thank you so much, Gabby, Gabriella. I really appreciate you spending your time to talk to me. This was a huge help.

[00:51:15] Gabriella: Thank you so much. This was really fun.

[pause 00:51:28]

[00:51:36] Gabriella: Awesome. Thank you. Speak soon. You too. Bye.

[00:51:51] [END OF AUDIO]